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Created by : Narinder Pal Singh, Sales/BD Manager, Tata Power  | 08 21 2008 05:20:16 +0000
Industry : PowerFunctional Area : Growth(Strategy & Execution)
Activity:  4913 views;  last activity : 06 29 2012 13:32:24 +0000
After the collapse of the turbine blades at the Sagardighi thermal power station in West Bengal, the big question in the power sector has resurfaced — are Chinese power equipment suitable for India?
 
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Top Argument
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For sure, this is not for the first time there has been an equipment failure in a power plant, but this instance stands out because the Chinese contractor, Dongfang, took 81 days to put it back in operations. The Chinese got a foothold in India because the Indian power equipment sector did not have enough capacity. But the Chinese have also been a lot cheaper — between 10 and 15 per cent lower than the best price that BHEL could offer.

By Narinder Pal Singh, Sales/BD Manager, Tata Power  08 21 2008 05:20:16 +0000
 
Top Argument
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Sadly, we lack leaders of the stature of Nehru, Bhabha, Sarabhai, who had the vision to establish India in the forefront of technology. 

It is interesting to follow how the Chinese have developed massive capacities especially in power sector. In the nineties, China invited all the major companies like Babcock, Alstom, Hitachi and Foster Wheeler and established technology tie-ups for sub-critical boilers. By 2000, they had absorbed the technology and banned all foriegn players from participating in domestic market. Again after 2000, when there was a need for supercritical technology, they again tied up with the global players and absorbed supercritical boiler technology. Again, the Chinese government ensured that the orders were executed only by Chinese domestic players. After 2005, the Chinese government has banned all units less than 300 MWe. Also the government has ensured that all new units will be supercrtical units.

Sadly, in India, successive govenments have lacked the vision to implement such bold steps. Even though companies like BHEL and L&T-MHI have invested heavily in establishing manufacturing capabilities, a number of players continue to embrace cheap borrowed technology (with of course no reliability) from China.

India should concentrate on establishing indegenous capability in order to secure its energy needs of the future and concentrate on supercritical technology as the day is not far off when carbon tax will become a relaity.

S.Chandrasekhar

L&T-MHI Boilers Pvt Ltd

Faridabad


By S.Chandrasekhar , DGM  03 01 2009 02:35:40 +0000
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Chinese equipment are better than Indian equipment in matters of quality, performance and delivery time, besides being 15% cheaper.However the power equipment has to be configured to burn Indian Coals and then turbines to work with Indian Grid frequency and reliability conditions.


By Himadri Banerji, Leading Expert GLG Group Inc NY, GLG  | 12 16 2011 10:23:58 +0000
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what exactly Power Equipment means to u...
By Kishor C. Chaudhari, Asst. Manager, CMI FPE Ltd.  | 06 08 2011 15:28:32 +0000
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I think it should be tried as there is very much shortage of power in India.
By mbhingnekar , Head/VP/GM-Production/Manufacturing, mahagenco,maharashtra  | 11 25 2010 07:12:21 +0000
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Absolutely right...even indian domestic manufactures are not capable of manufacturing super critical boilers.They cant even deliver in time.chinese equipments are cheaper and delivered in time.they can perform better if we use good coal of a better CV and a less Ash content i.e. upto 10%.


By Ashis Kar, Senior Engineer, Adani Power Limited  | 11 24 2010 16:33:05 +0000
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          Question of unreliability of Chinese Equipment arises from the quality standard.It is also a known fact that Chinese Suppliers adopt different quality standard for equipments supplied for their own country, as compared to those supplied for India.

           As Mr. Chanrasekhar of L&T has already pointed out - Chinese suppliers had got the power plant technology tranferred from the leadings  manufacturers like Babcock , Alstom , Hitachi , Siemens-Westinghouse etc. and lateron discontinued the tie-ups. That is why  whenever we Indians insist  for some change  in design as on date they( i.e Chinese supplier ) at the begining start relenting. Thereafter if we foot-down on our stand for the technical requirements ( considering equal life span of equipments as that given by BHEL ) - they comply for it, but naturally with some extra price tag.Even with this extra price tag - it is, in all likelihood, shall be much cheaper than BHEL or other Indian manufacturer. This is because there is a huge difference of around 15% cost between them and BHEL.

  Of course,there is an issue of maintenance and repair of equipments ( i.e SAS - service after sales ) . For which policy should be framed so that Chinese Companies are bound to establish manufacturing facilities in India - which give the utility that extra confidence and hence comfort.

    Let us accept the fact that in general we , the Indian power plant professionals ( particularly those in utilities ) , do not go indepth to the engineering aspects involved in design of thermal power plants. Many time some features are accepted as a black-box with a standard phrase " IT IS THE STANDARD PROVEN PRACTICE " .We rely to much on the ethics and faithfulness of BTG suppliers.As a result we can not catch hold of the sensative deviations, if BTG manufacturer tries to sneak through the vagueness of owners specifications etc. - a problem particularly faced with Chinese because of their over-agressive attitude.

  To conclude, we can get performance standard from the Chinese manufactureres at per with other BTG manufacturers ,at a lower cost - provided we give due technical deligence to it. The reason of lower cost comes from the simple fact of huge production rate there in CHINA. Our BHEL -Hardwar ( TG unit ) has yearly capacity of around 9000MW/annum ( which they are planning to enhance to 12000MW/annum by 2012 ) - wheras Dongfang alone has capacity of more than 30000MW/annum as on date. Apart from them ,there are other players like SEC and HARBIN. In one presentation to NTPC around two years back , HARBIN expressed that it is easier for them to supply 800MW units than 660MW units - because there production is more in 800MW units. All these facts points out to reason why they can supply at such a competitive rate. 


By SUBHRANGSHU SEKHAR DAS, Design Engineer, RELIANCE INFRASTRUCTURE LIMITED  | 05 13 2009 11:09:18 +0000
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     I strongly feel that branding Chinese Machine as inferior in general does not carry any sense.

      Dongfang M/C has failed to deliver in Sagardighi as well as in Amarkantak ( where there was reportedly some TG bearing failure problem ) - but at the same time machine supplied by SEC ( Sanghai Electric Corporation ) at YAMUNANAGAR is working satisfactory : and had already achieved guarateed parameters of output ,Heat Rate etc. Comparison between Dongfang and Sanghai document shows that - SEC engg. information exchange is much more transperent and detailed as compared to Donfang.

        However while working with any Chinese supplier , any Indian Power Plant Profession need to exercise more caution and deleberation as compared to BHEL documents - simply because we are more conversant with BHEL for over few dacades which has establised faith in them. That faith and provenness of Chinese Equipments will come with some passage of time - when they ( i.e Chinese suppliers ) customise their equipments as per Indian Grind Condition , and the design philosophies prevanent in our country.

   On many issues , it is felt that BHEL has continued their age-old design philosophies - without giving serious effort in optimising eqipment duty and sizing.These potential areas of optimisation can be known - only when we explore Chinese design . This will ultimately lead to more initiative on the part of BHEL to redo their philosophies and cutting down cost - maintaining the same reliability of the plant.


By SUBHRANGSHU SEKHAR DAS, Design Engineer, RELIANCE INFRASTRUCTURE LIMITED  | 05 13 2009 09:46:04 +0000
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Any body who visits China will notice the immmense progress made by the Industries there and it is not possible to do so without a relaible Power supply.  Having visited China (Cities), one notices that the Power Supply never fails there.  There is a reliable supply without any fluctuation.  I visited the IT park at Shanghai and was told they have not provided any power back up for thier offices as power never fails here.

One also obsrves that the power companies have been buying equipment from China at lower cost.  Cost is a relaitve factor and also is linked to the specifications that the developement team of the project have put in place.  Quality costs, and if one wants quality plants one may have to pay accordingly.  Have the companies buying power plansts from China compramised on the quality - one is not sure.  Many a project developer to put up a winnning bid for winning a project or for winning bids for sale of power to the Boards may resort to lowering of prices and hence lowering quality of power plants.  As many Chinese power plants are not commissioned we will have to wait and watch

But I feel if the right price is paid the right quality can be bought and these plants should also work in India as they work in China

   


By JSW , Project Lead, Tata Power  | 04 14 2009 21:39:03 +0000
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PEOPLE MAY DIFFER BUT EQUIPMENTS ARE SAME
By appan , Project Leader/Managing Consultant, nirai  | 09 30 2008 00:05:17 +0000
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YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.


By Vanchi Nathan, Engineer, BHEL  | 06 29 2012 13:32:21 +0000
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Are Chinese power equipment suitable for India? Should India buy equipment from our worst enemy – answer is no. Our dependence on them could be dangerous. The problem with BHEL and other Public Sector undertakings is protectionism. Protectionism is as detrimental as reservation. This has resulted in dianosaurs who refuse to move. This culture was created by leaders like Nehru and Bhabha. Nehru was the worst choice as a PM and country has paid dearly for it. If our policies were right we would have been in nuclear club. We continue to produce equipment with outdated technology and our engineers do not add any value to the imported technology. China has moved on and is becoming independent of western powers. Our defence industry is even worse. Even after 60 years we have to import technology that allows politicians to plunder our country. Worst example of protectionism is Air India. Singapore government refused to provide protection to Singapore Airlines and it is one of best in the world. Air India has become a expensive taxi service for politicians and bureaucrats. I myself worked for BHEL for 13 years. Quality control at BHEL is hopeless. China at anytime can do better then that. Just like BHEL China can build equipment to our requirements. BHEL is hopeless and has not lived up to expectations of the country. It is a drag on our economy. Private companies should be allowed to participate in power sector and BHEL should compete with them. Other problem with companies like BHEL is that top management is corrupt and runs company like their fiefdom. I was at BHEL Bhopal and it had become a road construction company to pocket money. Lot of people confuse protectionism and patriotism. Patriotism is being honest, competitive, efficient and work honestly in the pursuit of building strong country. Patriotism of weak ends in embarassment
By Jitendra , Software Developer, Auspost  | 03 14 2012 07:39:04 +0000
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Chinese products lack in Quality but are available at cheaper rates.
By Faizal Rahuman, B.Tech/B.E. student, Lisieux Matriculation Higher Secondary School  | 02 29 2012 15:04:21 +0000
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I don`t think so. I agree that Chinese equipment is cheaper than Indian products. But in recent time we have witnessed many problems in Chinese products whether it is mobile or anything else. Definitely price is important for Indian market because India belongs to lower middle income group of nations so price of a commodity is of prime importance. But their is no guarantee of Chinese products. About these products it an adage is used in the market it is: Chinese products chala to chand tak nahi to shaam tak.
By Saquib Alam, B.A (sociology), BRA Bihar university  | 12 17 2011 08:26:04 +0000
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Indian firms cannot deliver the power equipments in time because they lack the passionate persons dedicated for the work....this is because some of the top IT companies hire the freshers from the core branches even they dont need them....and offered them better salaries than the core sector firms can offer them.....so the trend has shifted towards the and this is depriving our country from getting quality products even though we have the best products......
By Arijit Modak, B.Tech/B.E. student, Techno India, Salt Lake  | 11 21 2011 07:09:33 +0000
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A true fact said by you.

heartily support you.

But it is not just the chinese fast production and low prices that are accountable for the same but also the surreptitious support of the government.

If the government decides to promote companies like BHEL and other Quality players than they should have created some barriers or rules through which Chinese agencies would have never been able to pass.


By Neerav Galathia, Sales Engineer, Aerzen Machines (India) Pvt. Ltd.  | 06 08 2011 11:34:58 +0000
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The argument is whether the Chinese equipments suitable or not. Answer is quality wise not at all! We all know that they are offering poor quality & all industry experts knows that they themselves dont own the supercritical technology & hence bad after sales support. The repeated failures at Chinese plants shows the lack of engineering. All reports are available with govt authorities but thanks to our corrupt systems, no one takes rigid stand. Chinese have made the India dependent on them by offering low priced equipments, low financing rates etc. But I would like to blame the IPP developers who just want to do business irrespective of the lives at risk- workers who would operate these plants! No responsibility at all? And now so many domestic manufacturing facilities coming up, then why we should depend on Chinese? Just a business & business has no ethics & moral responsibilities? I appreciate the developers like Tata, GMR, Avantha etc. who didn't want to be tagged with cheap.
By Firdaus Jahan, Manager - Business Development & Market Research, Doosan  | 04 06 2011 04:44:36 +0000
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NO. When our country India is capable of doing anything it needs, why we must depend on them? Remember how east india company entered India.


By Goutham S.C., Engineer - Application Management., Wipro Infotech GSMC, Mysore  | 03 23 2010 05:20:48 +0000
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I think it is high time we develop our national pride. In the 1960's it was Nehru's vision which saw the establishment of BHEL, and other public sector units. The only way we can compete with Chinese is by beating them in their own game - by lowering our costs.

How can this be done?

By building up the capacity?

How can this be done?

By allowing domestic private and public sector units to develop?

How can this be done?

By allowing concessions to domestic players.

IF WE DO NOT DO THIS TODAY, WE WILL FOREVER BECOME A SLAVE TO CHINA.

Chinese are noit going to respect any international laws. For example, a recent meeting with a so called reputed ESP vendor brought out this fact. This vendor claimed a technological tie up with a reputed European firm for the design of ESP and even showed some photographs. However when we asked the European firm for the confirmation, they denied any tie up and said that they had tried to take up the issue with the Chinese frim legally but failed.

Let us not be blinded by low initial costs and suffer lifelong. Let us stand on our own feet. We need to believe in ourseleves to develop as a nation. 


By S.Chandrasekhar , DGM  | 05 23 2009 04:31:14 +0000
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According to me.....i have few examples where chinese technology and products are harmful for life n property.....

But yes if you are in any developed country n u come across any chinese item... u can buy it even closing your eyes...this is not the case in India.....

The reason is in almost every developing country there is through quality check and also the buyers or customers very much concerned for quality....For eg. in US...there is proper law n if any customer suites a case against any producer..n if he is right in his claims then that producer looses his license to deal and his company is closed down so tht he cant sale the product under other user's name....

this thing is lacking in India....here we only see prices but dont think of the costs that we have to pay later....Think about it......

The worst scenerio of India.....IF PRODUCT IS DESI THEN ITS WORST BUT IF IT IS IMPORTED ESPECIALLY CHINA MADE....THEN PEOPLE BECOME CRAZY FOR IT....this is chinese policy.....so pls understand the situation and then react........


By kaustubh gokhale, Research Scientist, World Instittute of Sustainable Energy(WISE), Pune, India  | 04 17 2009 10:30:16 +0000
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Mr.Manoj i would also say that instead of using lower quality of chinese power equipment we should use and promote our own power equipment because there is no point in getting cheaper equipments if their quality is degraded.And we would be better off in using our indian made equipments because if there is a repairing problem then it can easily be done unlike in using the chinese ones where we have to call the service people from china to repair it.

what do you say?


By Isha Verma, Sales/BD Manager, Larsen & Toubro  | 04 09 2009 07:44:32 +0000
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Dear All,

I would like to draw your kind attn on point that chinese power plants are cheaper, but the maintanability of chinese power plants are not good, because is any failure, this failure may be minor or major, we have to call the service for china only, as there is not service centre available in INDIA. Chinese company are working in INDIA with very strong strategy as china gov. has banned the new installation of less than 300MW, so what they have manufactured earlier they had released their inventories. If we ask for new technology there cost might be higher than the other contries.

And parallely the labour component of total cost in china is less than the other contries, this might be also affecting the total cost of manufacturing of power plant


By Dinesh Singh, Project Planning & Management, TATA POWER  | 04 08 2009 16:59:54 +0000
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I fully agree. Chinese intrusion shall bring in power failure in long term.

To my knowledge capacity augmentation in BHEL is being carried out in regular manner and today BHEL is capable to manufacture 660 mw TG sets.

NTPC and State Electricity Boards should support Bhel/L&T etc.


By Manoj Krishna Sanyal, Head/VP/GM-Production/Manufacturing, Retired  | 03 11 2009 14:09:23 +0000
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It is use and throw project after fifteen years whereas our traditional thermal power project last even after 25 years of service with full capacity with lower budget annual overhauling.


By mbhingnekar , Head/VP/GM-Production/Manufacturing, mahagenco,maharashtra  | 03 07 2009 13:54:00 +0000
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Any layman would notice the difference between India and Pakistan. Whereas Pakistan has depended heavily on borrowed technology, today it is in apitiable state. On the other hand, India has, due to the vision of leaders such as Nehru, Bhabha and Sarabhai has develoiped a reasonable industry. The difference is there for all to see.

Let us give technology its due.


By S.Chandrasekhar , DGM  | 03 01 2009 02:41:37 +0000
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It is obseved in total materail of Chinees are not good. Now the person give example for poor qulity like China.
By GYANENDRA SINGH, Purchase/Vendor Development Manager BHEL  | 08 28 2008 06:35:11 +0000
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The question is very relevant because the Chinese have been winning orders quoting lower prices. Out of the 78,000 MW targeted for the current Plan period, orders have been placed for 72,000 MW. Twenty-two per cent of the orders have gone to the Chinese. Now if we get this short of result than whats the point giving orders to china?

By amit chaudhry, Senior Consultant, IML  | 08 21 2008 05:20:58 +0000
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