Is is the lopkal bill really a solution to India's corruption or just a small step towards a long journey to solve the issue?

Thanks Mr. Vinoy, that is why we try to create a science out of human predicaments. Humans are similar in many ways of behavior but they might differ only in form. Science means we limit the dimensions of control from 'n' say infinity to say 2 so that we can have pragmatism in our citizens life and destiny. If one believes out of science then one need to live with the belief that humans are different and whatever is different is a matter of psychic deviations than concurrence. Concurrence are from where theories flow and deviations create speculations and complexities probably the problems developing nations need to understand and make choices and decisions whether to follow science or illusions. I believe in God but when truth is just a word and cannot be found in anything we do one has no choice other than follow science to make any meaning to our life. This is not my directive but that of William James and I think Wundt on whose directions Americans regulate their environment. Thanks keep following scientific standards and try to plasticize societies so that equity and justice prevail in each citizens life.

Mr. Vinoy, I appreciate your common sense, which is what we all are trying to develop through our progress. Explaining the whole economics may not be easy as I see, then I can give a hint. See a building without a structure is useless so is an economy without one. Of course structures of economy do have a proprietary meaning in economy which is slightly different from the structures used in science like structures in civil engineering. What is used for daily managing of economy and the structure is the superficial manifestation of the variables like 'manufacturing' and 'employment' and the policies enacted to make sure these exists. Then profoundly there are other structures deeply built up like the 'circular flow' models of economy, the objectives that each citizen is driven to live for like maintainence of ones own 'inner rights' which all tantamount to the phenomena of 'rational choices'.

From here on it gets little hazy for the layman so let me not go further so that I don't confuse you. Inner rights is a philosophical state inherent commonly in every human like do not kill, do not slander, do not falsify, do not fornicate, do not sin, live in peace which all lead to the economic phenomenon which an Individual will like to have in his environment where one can learn and acquire skill, get a job, has enough pay to maintain his family, educate kids, go to hospitals and so on and so forth. Once these are out of reach of a citizen from the regulations of the governemtn or facilitations citizen will go out of his normal senses to acquire them through 'compulsions' which is called corruption.

So if one don't create Marxian directed structures as explained earlier then administering an economy to provide rational choices to citizen is difficult. The execution sides include all what moral philosophers directed one need to do in a nation like Adam Smith, Keyns, Alfred Marshell, Malthus etc;.

Hopefully this gives you a birds eye view of what is missing in our environment.

Mr Cherian, your comment was a really one of the best answers I have had the opportunity to see on Too-step. But probably a little dilution of the economics would help a person who is not familiar with that science t understand it. Taken alone with the political debate of the repercussion this make-believe thrill of corrupt free movement, one can wholly understand the hollowness of the movement.

Mr Cherian, your comment was a really one of the best answers I have had the opportunity to see on Too-step. But probably a little dilution of the economics would help a person who is not familiar with that science t understand it. Taken alone with the political debate of the repercussion this make-believe thrill of corrupt free movement, one can wholly understand the hollowness of the movement.

Ravindra, yes I agree partly with you. Those who live with principles will die by it. That is the honor of it. Others who do not feel that way and have other priorities will live by it. So be it. Finally the ultimate truth lies beyond our comprehension. It comes from the above

Where I disagree is the assumption that a passage of Lok Pal bill will just root out corruption. Other wise there are governments in place, Parliament, Judiciary etc. Have we rooted out corruption? Has a common man's case ever been resolved in court within reasonable period?

We definitely have a Prime Minister of very high integrity and wonderful wisdom, debatably the best after Pandit Nehru. A central cabinet having men of caliber and integrity (again debatable) than we have seen after the first one decade of Independence. Bureaucracy is perhaps more accountable than ever before in the history of free India. I think us as a society has to take a more holistic view than succumb to creating wish-list of dreams including the Lok Pal Bill.

We the people are finally to blame for electing the rogue elements to parliament where they do not have a decent sitting for a whole session. Why? Because we still vote people on merits of language, caste, religion,...etc.

In fact give due credit whenever it is needed, had the present government not passed the RTI Act , none of this scams would have seen the light of the day. Because the place where it should have been exposed in the first place is Parliament, and frankly the only time it seems to have a sitting is when they need to pass a bill on MP's salary hike.

Coming back to the Lok Pal, per se I am only happy to see the body set up. But please not the Jan Lok Pal bill, but a strong Lok Pal bill. I do have two points to conclude my argument . First the Lok Pal should have its limits. It cannot cover in my opinion the Prime Minister, Judiciary, the Defense forces, investigative agencies and maybe the lower sections of the bureaucracy. It should not have the authority to investigate or prosecute. There are already long lists of bodies for these purposes. Giving Lok Pal the authority too will only create confusion leading to complete anarchy.. 

My second point is giving all these powers to a body that is finally not accountable directly to the people is dangerous. It is just a couple of years guaranteed before the elected legislature and the elected Prime Minister becomes redundant and India is led by the Lok Pal. The body by its very nature at best an Oligarchy and that is a disaster waiting to unfold. If at all we constitute the Lok Pal in a manner that they are directly elected by the People. Then what’s the point? We the already have Lok Sabha. Why waste public money on another body. At best constitute a Lok Pal elected by the people and abolish the Lok Sabha? But again the same ball rolls.

Having made my two points let me assure you, I am a not into negativism and am sure changes are being made and the screws have too be further tightened.

I also have a short-term suggestion. The salary paid to a member of the house during session should be determined by his attendance chart and documented by a panel of the Speaker, the leader of the house and head of opposition. Finally the attendance chart has to be duly accounted by an individual (assume the President of India). Thanks for your time to read through this maybe a little unwieldy note. I would love further inputs from you and my other friends on TooStep.

Dear Mr.Ravindra Sharma, Is it not unfair to judge others with different point of view about corruption as supporters of corruption. It is exactly what the activists are doing. For them all others except them are corrupt. I have opened this community "ICACO' and go through my postings in it.

Please read my posting "Bitter Pills for India Reprieve" which I wrote many years back. I have worked for over 50 years in a senior position in DOT and other Telecom companies. I have not taken a paisa as bribe from anyone. And I have also tried  best to reduce corruption in the department I managed.

Governments are run by a collection of individuals. Corruption can be overcome only by personal integrity and high morality of each individual.

A person jumping Q in a bus stop is corrupt in a way. One who travel without ticket. One who avails service of govt. hospital by understating his income is corrupt. One who waste water is corrupt. Those who pollute rivers are corrupt. One who d0 not exercise his franchise in election is corrupt. One who try to get his work done out of turn is corrupt. One who amass wealth beyond his need is corrupt.Those who spite others in the name of cast creed or religion are corrupt. Look at the recent scams. The root cause of many of these originate from corrupt and greedy private enterprises that go to extent to bend the governments to get their work done. 

It means that Corruption of mind is the reason for all sorts of corruptions. Each of us need to have a truthful self introspection before blaming others?. 

Also look at the following facts.To look after millions of corruption cases covering peons to PM and Judiciary and what not, Lokpal will have to be a big parallel machinery with thousands of Lokayukths and lakhs of supporting staff. From where will we get non-corrupt people for this. And then under whom this people will be. We will need another machinery and another constitution and another super Lokpal to take care of this Lokpal. 

Come on friends let us be a little more realistic.

No doubt, passing the lokpal bill is an effective step, but still tough periods are ahead to give proper shape for the implementation, effectiveness, and success.It needs a lot more to decide what next in this directions.

Thanks for the referral Ms.Swapna Das.

Is there any country cent percent free of corruption? Corruption in one form or other existed from the origin of humanity. Only that the modus operandi and intensity and various forms of corruption are different in different countries. In India, there are systemic failures everywhere, due to corruption or else. A cleaning up is very much in need.

However, it is Utopian thinking to have corruption free society. In the rich, selfishness and greed and hunger for power make them corrupt. Many who are poor indulge in some form of corruption in a lesser way due compulsion of circumstance. Absence of adequate income to take care of the minimum needs of family and children drive many low level employees to look for extra income in the form of small time bribery etc. There is no point in preaching ideology to the hungry, downtrodden and sick. These can be addressed only by improving the per capita income and removal of the wide economic gap and imbalance between the rich and poor. Over and above it require transformation of the majority of people in the country of personally of disciplined mindset, which is easily said than done.

In many ways corruption add spice to an otherwise dull life, like indulgence in irrational or unethical love between wrong persons. Various kind of personal biases leading to some form of corruption are equally strong traits of human life like love, compassion and forgiveness and repentance. There were more corrupt kings and rulers than good ones all over the world. The communist leadership corrupted the poor with false ideologies and promises. It is easy to mislead people by inciting various euphoria and utopian thinking. In all possibility this sort of human euphoria opens out opportunity for the power mongering politicians and antisocial elements to hijack democracy leading the country to anarchy.

The NGOs blame political parties or Governments as a whole in following dynastic traits. How come the rule is not applicable for people in this Lok Pal committee. Anna Hazare appear to act worse than a dictator in exhorting that he only have the right to judge and say whatever comes to his mind but do not allow or agree when others follow such options. How is that these five members in the committee became the representative of a billion and odd people in the country? I do not agree and I am sure there are millions like me. Is it not necessary to have some kind of countrywide referendum or election to decide who should represent the people?

It is not right to say the Governments are corrupt. Actually it is the people in the government are corrupt. It includes the people in the all Governments, all politicians, bureaucrats, the staff the workers owing allegiance to various political parties and religious / ethnic groups in the Centre as well as in all States. There are indulgences in various forms of corruption in the private and public sector set ups, even in the army and various levels of judiciary. But then these are known to everyone. Only the people concerned in the government were sleeping and that too for over half a century new without doing anything about it. If Anna Hazare’s initiative act as a catalyst, rightly or not, shall be only more than welcome.

 I agree with  Swapna's arument. and will conclude ,'A state of unrestrained political corruption is known as a kleptocracy, literally meaning "rule by thieves".

In order to reach your destination the first step is necessery. This has been taken on right direction and at the end a small step for a greater beginning.

Swapna I agree with your view point.

Much more is required with Lokpal bill.

Thanks for referral, Swapna.