@Kaliyamoorthy - I respectfully disagree with your comment "if we allow this trend, then our scholar gets our institution undermined" - Aren't our institutions getting undermined due to other stronger and compelling reasons?
By
John Jacob, Consultant, confidential
| 06 06 2011 04:44:04 +0000
I don't think anklet-trackers have got anything to do with "Obsession". Those students were either ignorant or they tried to fool the system or just "bad luck".
By
John Jacob, Consultant, confidential
| 06 06 2011 02:50:21 +0000
@Kaliyamoorthy - Now I understand what you are talking about. I don't think it is called 'Obsession'. It is called 'greedy' or 'greediness' because a degree from a 'fly by night' university (does not matter whether it is from india or u.s or europe or whatever) can only be used for fly by night activities and cannot be used to satisfy one's obsession with academia.
By
John Jacob, Consultant, confidential
| 06 05 2011 16:05:59 +0000
Mr. Raju, eventhough I already gave my opinion, I feel something needs elaboration. Those who adorn important position alumani of the bulgebracket institutions here, three names that are prominent are Indra Nuyi, Prof. Prahalad and Rajan. All of them though were trained in IIMs, they had retraining in similar levels in foreign universities, like Wharton, Chicago and Harward respectively. Moreover glotting over someone elses position is only an index to ones ego than constructive assesment of our education policy. These institutions were only 'silent watchers' of our own down turn in the 80's. 85% of our citizen live marginalized which shows the effectivenes of these institutions of being any good to our national prerogatives and objectives. After half a century of their existence if this is the functionality they generate then appreciating it is not classical thought rather some sort of convoluted imaginations, which is probably the reason most of our policies fly around without meeting the targets. Thanks.
By
Mathew Cherian, Research Associate/Analyst, Western Michigan University
| 06 03 2011 15:15:49 +0000
Mathew, I am not sure from where you got all those erroneous statistics from regarding IITians and IIMs. Even if assuming that you are correct in your statistics, the combination of technology and management will do wonders. Indians are either too good technically or too good in management but not in both areas except few like Jamshed Tata. This combination is now resulting in many more Indians starting businesses and industries. There is just a marginal difference between obsession and passion and it depends on the other person's view. And coming to Kalam, I am again disappointed that you view him only as the father of our nuclear arsenal and not the nuclear knowhow which we are using for setting up own nuclear reactors for producing electricity. There are no new inventions or breakthroughs without somebody being obsessed with that idea / concept. Individuals need to be obsessed for producing their best. You can even take your own experience where you had remained obsessed with something and did not sleep till it was achieved.
By
Raju V P, Senior Manager, an International Bank
| 06 03 2011 15:11:33 +0000
Mr. Murlidharan, you are very right about 'reflective thinking'. Then it is what we do before embarking on a decision. During the process we need be rational and should be 'relative thinkers' when handling each work and phenomenon. Relative mean understanding, suppose we can assume a cartesian co-ordinate system, then understanding the movement of the path alone would do of the point we should understand the independent variables that drive the point the parameters I mean which are responsible for the functional points to move. Also if possible the parameters that drive the parameters that drive the functional point of outcome we are studying. Thanks.
By
Mathew Cherian, Research Associate/Analyst, Western Michigan University
| 06 03 2011 14:36:53 +0000
Mr. Cherian, you are right. Let me share with you the model of "reflective thinking proposed by Dewey in the year 1933 ought to be encouraged by education. This is a type of thinking that considers options and reasons before choosing a course of action or adopting a belief. You may argue here that Dewey's proposal can serve as the basis for a domain-independent theory of intelligent thinking. Following Dewey, one can propose a general normative (prescriptive) model of the phases of reflective thinking: problem recognition, enumeration of possibilities, reasoning, revision, and evaluation. Associated with each phase is at least one parameter governing the operation of that phase, e.g., sensitivity to evidence for the “revision” phase, and at least one rule for setting the optimum value of that parameter. People may tend to deviate from the optimum in a particular direction; for example, people may be generally too insensitive to evidence against favored beliefs. Some people may be more prone to such biases than others. Such individual differences are a matter of propensities rather than capacities, because the setting of the parameter is under voluntary control—either directly, through the explicit use of the rules, or indirectly, through the use of heuristics. The measurement of individual differences in these parameters is best done under typical conditions, rather than optimal conditions. Although the general rules may provide goals for education (descriptions of what a good thinker should do), they do not tell us how to achieve those goals. The setting of a parameter is likely to be affected by beliefs, values, emotions, and habits; and education for reflective thinking may have to deal with all of these.
By
S. Muralidharan, Executive Director, Knowledge Foundation & Campus Around the Corner
| 06 02 2011 17:50:37 +0000
I am filling up something I left out below for the reason that I am handling here a phenomenon of much higher priority. Obsessive neurotics fail to get a clear grip over their academia for the reason that, for example a book placed on a table is easy to perceive where as finding the non-algebrai roots of a quintic require more attention and commitment. The difference is one need not need any relative thinking like the pen on the table which is automatically proecessed in the brain due to development during childhood. Where as complications faced in academia can be resolved only if one maintains .relative thinking' which can only endenger depth in ones skill prolieferration in life. So obsession neurotics can fall prey to other complicated mental disorders along with infficiency in work places. Relative thinking is looking into all the dimensions of the problem at hand and assimilating it for skill development. For this campuses must have better food facilities and libraries with 'individuality' and rationality incorporated in the campus culture with transparent grading system which assesses the risk of the graduate and manifests in his or her grade sheat.
By
Mathew Cherian, Research Associate/Analyst, Western Michigan University
| 06 02 2011 17:04:22 +0000
Indian academic campuses are not well endowed from Independence onwards.Lack of facilities like food, trnasportation etc; can cause undue hardships for students expecially when they are building up their skills.
Because of this and many more reasons of their own choices like parental compulsions, following the heard, social compulsions etc; students fall prey to obsessivenes in facing academia.
Obsessivenes is defined as uncertainity and vaugness in dealing with a situation, which can make the situation very irrational per se. This obsessivenes can follow the student post graduation to his work place and life and can create mental disorders which prevents him or her from facing the challenges of the work place. Obsessive students resorts to learning by heart to plagerizing, even other sleight of the hand methods to get out of the academia.
Cognition is the material changes that take place in human brain while in academia.
So the academic environment need be welfare oriented with all facilities so that falling prey to obsessive neurotic states can be prevented.
By
Mathew Cherian, Research Associate/Analyst, Western Michigan University
| 06 02 2011 16:38:31 +0000
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Mr. Raju, you are absolutely on the dot. "Blame the Government"! I endorse your views. Unless and until the Government creates one-window clearance for any innovation to take route, no one would like to waste their time putting up something better for future generations in this country. This brain drain will continue to happen. I've seen the initiatives of Prof. Jhunjunwala in IIT Madras, his Banyan Network initiatives, TIE initiatives, etc. In fact, I was wanting to promote one of their initiatives to spread Open Education in the country and had initiated discussions with one of the state governments, but our government agencies failed to appreciate the technology turned down under one pretext or the other, as they were already decided on some international technology companies. How can you expect them to stimulate research to help India! In spite of such constraints, a few initiatives are happening in and out. A lot many such instances, I have encountered, could be quoted. Some one was saying every time our IIMs are cribbing about the leakage of CAT papers. If they don't know how to manage their own question papers, how can they create best managers in this country? Any way, these are all some food for thought that every citizen should ruminate over! In India, we created IIITs for foster higher education in the country. Prof. Sadagopan in Bangalore did fairly a good job in fostering higher education in the technology space in the country. I also heard in one of the conferences a very senior retired professor advicing students to take up subjects like Economics, rather than engineering and technology in the given scenario! We have both pluses and minuses, but to my mind, the current trend suggests that the minuses overweigh pluses! We, really, need to do something about this obsessive trend!
By
S. Muralidharan, Executive Director, Knowledge Foundation & Campus Around the Corner
| 06 07 2011 04:14:21 +0000
@Muralidharan, I was about to post the comments of Jairam Ramesh when I saw yours. The Govt tried all methods possible to impose reservation and preferences for local students, etc. But IITs refused to change their merit-only selection criteria. Being snubbed, Govt has resorted to such disinformation attacks. How many IIT graduates are going for IIMs? Mostly those who want to float their own businesses. And they are migrating to US and other countries? True. Because there are no avenues open in India to showcase their talents and open businesses. This shoud not come as surprise for those who have watched Sivaji The Boss. How the hero is faced with opposition at every nook and corner when he wants to open an university. Think that the film was exaggerating things? Try getting any certificate from the Govt authorities and you will not say so. So if the IITians are not contributing to the growth of India, blame the Government. And coming back to the topic, they are producing obsessive students who become masters in their chosen fields. Still not convinced? Please watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGIgJWvt6fw And as for the arguments against IITians going for further education (thereby trying to prove that they are useless institutes), have you not heard of continuing education? IITs are being faulted by the Government (for reasons above), those taken in by this propoganda and by those who tried to get admission there but failed. To conclude, obsession is not a threat to Indian Academia.
By
Raju V P, Senior Manager, an International Bank
| 06 06 2011 16:52:37 +0000
Hey Mr. Jacob, I think thats' out of scope of debate. We primarily, exploring the components that affect the Academia viz, Cognitive & Obsession. May be there a separate debate taken on this issue .
By
KALIYAMOORTHY , Oil & Gas Area Coordinator, Undisclosed
| 06 06 2011 08:55:09 +0000
You all remember, how our Environment Minister, Mr. Jairam Ramesh stirred the debate that the so-called premiere institutions in the country, viz., IITs and IIMs are not in the forefront of top 100 institutions in the world, and also claimed that the faculties are basking in the glories of creamy layers of top-ranking students and not really stimulating excellence (not in exact phrases, meaning the same), to which the faculties came heavily upon him. They also cited a number of constraints that are really weakening their intent. We have to get out of this obsession now that we have created a world-class edifice and these will continue to be world-class in the growing fierce global competition. That era is gone! IITs should convert all the under-graduates to immediately go for higher education and guide them to pursue innovation in various sectors with support from the Government and Corporates, together. Let them be made perfect in their field of activity. What happens now is that they immediately look for Management education from IIMs and look for fat-salary assignments from the corporates. Apparently, honestly, these IIT & IIM degree holders are exactly doing what the enterpreneurs (school drop-outs and college-drop-outs) are doing in the market! Is this a good scenario?
By
S. Muralidharan, Executive Director, Knowledge Foundation & Campus Around the Corner
| 06 06 2011 05:03:10 +0000
Hey Mr. Raju, This is what I said about it already.
"So what I feel is that these are the psychological problems(the obsession contributing factors) remains as a threat to Academia. As far as IIT. IIM, what I feel , is that it is the ethnic(racial) obsession that keeps India's academia trailing behind the others. A Few exceptional climb over it."
By
KALIYAMOORTHY , Oil & Gas Area Coordinator, Undisclosed
| 06 06 2011 01:00:53 +0000
@kaliyamoorthy - Thanks. Elsewhere in this topic you will find somebody telling that our institutions are not good enough due to which people are flocking to foreign universities. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion - which depends on many factors. I respect each one of them.
By
Raju V P, Senior Manager, an International Bank
| 06 05 2011 18:56:05 +0000
Hey, What I am saying is that this kind of obsession remains a threat to our academia. Because, if we allow this trend, then our scholar gets our institution undermined. Hope I clarified it.
By
KALIYAMOORTHY , Oil & Gas Area Coordinator, Undisclosed
| 06 05 2011 17:27:17 +0000
I think it necessary to reproduce an extract from my earlier post: There is just a marginal difference between obsession and passion and it depends on the other person's view. Quite often, a lifetime ambition of one person is interpreted as obsession (in the negative sense) by others. If this is the case, the person having that wrong perception is at fault and a threat. However a person obsessed (passionate?) with something concerning himself (like wanting to do something spectacularly positive or achieve his positive goals) is very much welcome. All the inventions till the present day happened because the inventor was obsessed with the idea. I would just request everybody to pause for a while before passing harsh judgements on others' actions. Please remember - our own actions can be misinterpreted and similar judgements can be passed on us. @Kaliyamoorthy, John, maybe the persons who have joined the 'fly by night' universities did so on account of the mob mentality (if one joins and succeeds, everybody tries to follow suit). In case you have studied all the ups-and-downs of the stock exchanges, you will undersand that it is on account of this mob mentality. This might also be argued as greed. If my neighbour buys a car, I would definitely plan to buy a car. An answer like 'Yes. But I would do it within my means' will only be good to hear. One more fact. If somebody else fails, either he has not done his homework or he is stupid or he deserves it. If I fail, it is just my bad luck. Period. Correct? @Shrikant, you have not read my post fully before posting your view. Quoting it again for your benefit: I dont think either of us is ready to accept the stronger points in the other's views. So I would call quits myself.
By
Raju V P, Senior Manager, an International Bank
| 06 05 2011 17:02:54 +0000
Hey, There are innumerable people obsessed with, to acquire a degree from US at any cost, FROM CHILDHOOD irrespective of the Institution. You can say, yearning for foreign degree. What you said ignorance is not that , they are obsessed with a mental thought that makes them through any ways.
By
KALIYAMOORTHY , Oil & Gas Area Coordinator, Undisclosed
| 06 05 2011 16:17:38 +0000
If there was no 'obsession' then there would never have been a newton or einstein. Lawlessness, lack of integrity, lack of freedom and a host of others are the real threat to indian academia, Obsession is not. Obsession per se is a mental disorder for those who want to achieve their goals without putting in any effort. I agree with Mr.Raju that "Obsessive students do not learn by-heart, They become the masters in their chosen field" and I also agree with Mr.Mathew that "Moreover we had these premier institutes for around 48 years and we haven't produced any international quality product or brand from any of these engineers" but I have to disagree with his view that obsession is a threat to indian academia.
By
John Jacob, Consultant, confidential
| 06 05 2011 10:40:23 +0000
Hey, Further more clarification from my point of view. Both , Cognitive & Obsession are neuro-related. In India, mostly, academia is facing threat , as I explained earlier, is the economic conditions( inability to support the education expenses- say poverty); creamy class suppress the so-called out-cast for which the Govt. came with a solution of reservation; language based obstacles to pursue educations across the country- CBSE aims to reduce this;etc. So what I feel is that these are the psychological problems(the obsession contributing factors) remains as a threat to Academia. As far as IIT. IIM, what I feel , is that it is the ethnic(racial) obsession that keeps India's academia trailing behind the others. A Few exceptional climb over it.
By
KALIYAMOORTHY , Oil & Gas Area Coordinator, Undisclosed
| 06 04 2011 02:28:35 +0000
Mathew, the topic started with difference between cognitive and obsession. But now it seems to be going to a different direction. I have given my views and you gave yours. I dont think either of us is ready to accept the stronger points in the other's views. So I would call quits myself. For me, any small contribution by any individual / institution to my country is welcome. I would like to isolate that aspect from the failure of the Government to uplift the poor. Have a nice day!!!!!!
By
Raju V P, Senior Manager, an International Bank
| 06 03 2011 15:41:00 +0000
Obsession per se is a mental disorder. If one feels it has good side to it, then as it stated elsewhere it is only ones personal prejudice or belief. Scientifically obsession is a neurotic affect. Your assumption of IITs and IIMs are too farfetched, considering the fact that around 60% of IIM graduates are IITn's meaning they switched their profession from natural philosophy to moral philosophy, so much for what obsession do to ones choice when one funmbles with it in younger days. Moreover we had these premier institutes for around 48 years and we haven't produced any international quality product or brand from any of these engineers so much for the natural philosophers here. We too haven't maintained our socialistic path but fumbled and turned into a global partner, so much for our moral philosophers. Obsession instead of doing good hasn't taken us anywhere other than we remain where we started in the first place. Our atom bomb do have a lot to do with Mr. Kalam, though he was ably supported in this by five professors from University of Colorodo. Then atom bomb is a calamous theory and it has only led us into an arms race in the region with mortal fear we have to live with calamity that we cannot live with. So obsession is a psychological phenomenon, which lead to neurosis which can be painful disease. Taking decisions rationaly with our objectives confined in academic values and philosophy is a healthier proposition for India for its betterment. Thanks for the considered opinion everyone, negative and positives are well taken and appreciated. An open debate I think enlightens and corrects our prejudices and sets us in more rightful paths. Thanks.
By
Mathew Cherian, Research Associate/Analyst, Western Michigan University
| 06 03 2011 14:30:47 +0000
Thanks Sheetal for referral. I think I agree with Kaliyamoorthy on the points mentioned by him. Interesting subject and a very lengthy discussions required to reach to the core.
By
Rathin Deb, Freelance Retail Consultant
| 06 03 2011 12:10:44 +0000
The definition given by Mathew for obsession is in a negative sense, viz., Obsessivenes is defined as uncertainity and vaugness in dealing with a situation, which can make the situation very irrational per se. There are positive definitions for the term. They include fascination, attraction and enthusiasm. Taken in this meaning, obsession should be a blessing. Look at our IITs and IIMs. The faculty and students there are obsessed with one goal, viz., academic excellence and mastering of their particular stream. This obsession is resulting in these institutions churning out thousands of professionals every year who are manning out all the important positions in the world today. Abdul Kalam was obsessed with India's nuclear path. Result, we are one of the few powers who possess nuclear technology. Obsessive students do not learn by-heart, Mr.Mathew. They become the masters in their chosen field. I do agree that obsessiveness to excel should not result in children learning byheart everything.
By
Raju V P, Senior Manager, an International Bank
| 06 03 2011 09:33:54 +0000
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