Same Sex Marriage

Dear williams i do not know how are you advocating such a content? i think sarika is totally right and the marriage in indian culture is with only 2 intentions i.e. one for the children and the other is for the religious purpose and it is also a truth that the men and women are not complete without each other.  it is true that the westernised craze is the main cause to destroy our tradition and culture, if one trusts that the sex is must for all living beings, did any one see a male dog with a male or a bull romancing with other bull, we human beings are loosing our mental stability, our mindset need to be changed, the homosexuality, male to male, female to female it sickens the reader's mind! if we enjoy what the mother earth or the planet gave us, that is fine! otherwise the content is very sub-standard to both read and argue.

Dear Mithun.Sagar, Thanks.

Any group, legal or illegal, sensible or non-sensible, has to have a percentage. 

I have never said that they should not be allowed to live; or that they are not human beings; or that their bodies do not contain blood. These are totally irrelevant to judge propriety of human behavior,conduct or character. 

You do not have to argue as though I am carrying on a hatred campaign. 

The question of taste arises only within a sphere of normal behavior. Within a natural, normal relationship, you may explore the question of taste; certainly not outside that. I do not know how you categorize a perverted behavior as a question of taste. By the same logic, you would have to treat even sadism as a question of taste! 

The action of planning commission, some judicial proceedings etc., show a dangerous trend. Please also take note that there are a number of judicial bodies, elected bodies and highly learned persons, who have given considered opinions against such a trend. 
 
Simply because a specific percentage of people behave in a particular manner, it need not become automatically legal or acceptable. It is against natural, social, moral and value system; and, therefore, it is not correct to legalize it. Maintaining such a social opinion is important to keep such behavior under control. 

I strongly discourage the same sex marriage as this will create imnbalance in our society. The perosnal freedom can't be bigger than social responsibility and natural eco-genetic-balancing. 

it does hurt parents but having said that, anything between two consenting adults should not be much of an issue for others. only when it gets rampant shud it actually worry us, b'cause what is world with out  man -woman attraction.
secondly, hinduism will accept all, it is very pluralistic, decentralised. some will cite caste system to show it is discriminative... but then it was never meant to be discriminative in the first place...but misused by few

I don't know about God,religion,teachings etc.But I do know that nature is greatest and we have to follows its laws.Same sex marriage is detestable since it is against nature nd cannot contribute for betterment of mankind.It is just cynical self gratification.But dont hate such people try to bring around a change.

Being a human,we are having our likes and dislikes...I believe in One god, One caste & One religion.We all are gods childrens,right,in that case Gays and Lesbians are also his childrens, right.They are having different love making taste.What we can do on that?we cant do anything,it may be because of their culture,community etc...Let them have that,Our community has to accept that,let them also live.Blood will shed from their body also,rigt,so understand them,they are also humans.

Acccording to the latest NDTV survey about gays& lesbian population ended up in 7.5% of total indias popoulation.They are also indians and paying taxes too.We have to accept and appreciate them and we want to make a peacefull surrounding for them to live in india without bending their heads infront of others after unveling their identity.

Planning Commission of India have recommended the repeal of IPC sec 377.So please don t be narrow minded.........

Thanks Mr. Amit Kumar for having applied your mind to this subject. 

The argument against the same sex marriage is not entirely based on history, culture or tradition. Only some of those who want to justify it try to show from history, culture or tradition that it has been there from time immemorial. 

All criminal activities were there, are there and are likely to be there in spite of steps to curb them. Nobody can say that the best way to deal with them is to accept them as normal or legal. 

A number of practices against the natural way of living may be there in past and present. It may also be a fact that they would be there in future. But it would be a mistake to allow them within the fold of 'acceptable or right behavior'. This would help prevent the evil things from growing beyond any limit and overwhelming the normal things; though it may not be possible to eliminate the evil things once for all. 

Nowadays parents are concerned about the safety of their daughters; if the supporters of same sex activities are not corrected, we shall have to worry about the safety of our boys also from the hands of perverted lot.

So, those who wish that the world should not swerve from the right path, would go on calling a spade a spade. This is not because of hatred or arrogance. This is a minimum duty for the responsible global citizens. Those who want to open Pandora's box, by legalizing a wrong behavior are, to say the least, are not responsible persons.

Hi Loving ones,

A very hot discussion indeed between Williams and Sarika......and to me...both have their very valid points.....to remind...BOTH.

I see as....Same Sex Marriage or even marriage...should not at all be concerned with Culture, traditions or cult rules.....Its a very very personal liking...not only liking...its far more that.

Sarika....I personally don't appreciate "same sex relations"...but their should not be a denial that they exist...and they exist since olden days. I understand history is not the only criteria to debate......but beyond that a right judgmental mind should also be their. 

Our history is not of INDIA's history. India is just a 60+ country...covering only a very Little part of the whole domicile Called as "Aryavrat" a consolidation of thousands of different traditions, customs and cultures raised on again different thousand basis. .......So INDIAN TRADITION is nothing but a mockery to play with nowadays just to prove their ignorance ...right. To be precise ...Ignorance here means....Individuals...own ability to think ..i.e., Swa Vivek. 

Khajuraho Temple...is something ...which is completely a different issue to understand......Humbly request to allow me to say something on this.....For the thousands of years...this continent has been a place of different sects, cults and creeds...who used to work upon uplifting of their 'consciousness' other way round...we can call it Meditation, Dhyana, Sadhna , tapsya , way of living etc etc. vaishnava, shaiva, tantra, nath and many others....were very old traditions which used to work on raising human conciousness...through their ways....

Khajurao Temples are based upon "Tantra"...it says that Human mind is so perverted and inclined towards SEX that ...the ultimate 'State of Conscious Awareness' can not be attained...unless you encroach it...

For a Tantrik Student....to go into meditation..his sexual desires, feelings and emotions used be the biggest hinderence in his Way towards Meditation....So Khajuraho Temples ...at their outer manifest every possible form of sexual act, including imaginations and dreams...including Animal Sex..Student before entering into the Hall has to round around the whole temple and concentrate on these....and its mental habit...that once u do a thing with its totality ...it gets complete and evaporate...

its more like a porn magazine or a film...but like always....to see these things with full awareness and their beauty is not done/known by people at large...its a meditation.........

coming back to the main topic....Shahi Haram's of Kings and Emperors worldwide used to have hundreds of ladies including new boys and eunuch....in Nawabi tradition...these boys used to be called as "Launde" but not a general practice raised by people at social level....because...for them taking care of their housewife till date is a bigger issue. 

Well....Same Sex ...whether for as Homo or Lesbianship..is unnatural and unproductive...but ...its purely a personal choice....and not mass has to decide what 'other' has to do with his life or not....even if one's commit a sucide..thats always his personal phenomenon....On human grounds....i think..its time to accept every human beings with his/her totality.......Love and happiness should be the basis to lead an Individual life traditions or system. 

Comments are invited. 

I would like to respond to the views favoring or suggesting not to condemn it. Two friends have written to me separately their ideas. They are as follows:

(1)
I read the story and also your remarks and realized that all of you seem to be wishing our ideals on our children. In today’s scenario I think we should view same sex marriage as an inevitable outcome of predestined influences and not a rebellious hippy attitude towards society or shastras. 

Try being compassionate towards homosexuals instead of judging them from your pristine point of view. 

It is something beyond their control and the sooner we learn to agree to that the better it will be for them. Swami Ramdevs notwithstanding. 

We have mutilated and hybridized and genetically modified so much of our surroundings and food. How do you expect today’s children not to be affected by it? We messed up this gene by not knowing long term consequences when we followed and re-invented science so many years back so we are the ones to blame for today’s ills not the children.

Such stories and following remarks will only serve to deeply hurt those who are caught in the throes of homosexuality...

(2)
I usually do not get drawn into a debate unless it's in Sports or very compelling. The gay-backers vs. gay-bashers debate has been going on for too long and I'm sure there are valid points made by both sides. Personally, I'm not in the corner of the gay community or same-sex marriage (in fact I'm not even in favor of marriage leave alone same-sex marriage but that's for another day and time). 
 
In the recent past scientists have discovered gay behavior in animals. Read this article (http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm) to see examples in the animal kingdom. So by extension, it can also exist among humans. Now I'm not saying it's true or that I believe in it. I really do not know what to believe in this case. Legalizing same-sex marriage is going to open a Pandora’s Box. 
There are other arguments made by opponents that the gay community is generally more prone to sexually transmitted diseases and that the cost of insuring them is high. Should we let same-sex couples adopt children? We can go on an on with these. 
 
But I do know that calling this sort of behavior a crime is stretching it a bit too far. If anything crimes are routinely committed against the gay community by skeptics or 'normal people'. It's as bad as spreading words of hate or committing crimes against a minority community such as the Indian or Arab communities here in the US. I think that we should just let these people be. If it's a fad, it'll soon run out of fashion. 

(3)
The third argument is that of Mr. Sanjay Gregory Williams and is available in this forum itself. 
My Reply
It is not hatred against the individuals. They are also human beings. That is why rules should be there designed to safeguard them from getting into such unnatural habits. 

The punishments are prescribed to control the crimes; they are not prescribed because of any personal hatred against the offenders. 

It goes without saying that individual circumstances, if really extenuating, are naturally taken into account in deciding the crimes. 

My first friend has advised to be compassionate. Agreed. I have nowhere said that we should be cruel to the individuals. 

If a person suffers from kleptomania, he or she should try and get out of that illness. Would anybody say that we should not hate them; and shoplifting need not be treated as an offence?

Sodomy is basically a mental disease. There might have been times when they were tortured or even burnt. We have to be balanced. While not resorting to any such brutal practices, it is also necessary to make them know that what they do does not meet with approval; that they should try and rectify their defect. 

I do not know the relevance of Swami Ramdev here.

Genetic Engineering has nothing to do with this. Sodomy is an age-old mental and physical perversion.

The argument that they are helpless is not acceptable. No human being is totally helpless. Whatever effort they can put, they have to do it. The rules should be such that they are persuaded to do so.

My second friend has advised to be pragmatic. I have not said anything against pragmatism. But letting them be as they are would mean showing indifference to their lot. The government and society should act considerately and induce them to turn to the natural path.

The fact that such practices are noticed among animals is not relevant. Animals are ignorant of many things and so we call them brutes. For example they do not treat their mother and sisters differently. A human being is supposed to follow a higher standard. 

Thirdly, Mr. Sanjay Gregory Williams has pointed out that such sculptures are there in our temples. Agreed. 

Hindu temples do not show God as an alien. The structures of the temples are supposed to represent the prapancha or the Universe, a mixture of good and bad; in this Universe having darshan of God and becoming one with Him is possible. Hindus do not see God as seated only in the Heavens. As He is considered Omnipresent, His presence is to be first experienced in this world itself. 

The erotic sculptures are not the only sculptures there. There are countless depictions of animals, birds, various sceneries, episodes, ministers, rajas, thieves, watchmen, dancing girls, yogis and what not. They are all meant to be artistic representation of various aspects of the world as they are. 

The presence of a thief’s image in a temple does not mean that thievery is to be accepted. It is only to show that this Universe has thieves and the thieves also can have the grace of God, if sincerely attempted. 

Mr. Sanjay need not have wasted his time searching for and listing out these sculptures in the temples. At least, it is not going to strengthen his point in the present discussion. Nobody has said that homosexuals were born yesterday. The point is that same sex relationship is abnormal and has to be treated so.

His contention that we cannot do anything about the presence of homosexuals is not acceptable. I do not say that they have to be eliminated; I too know that it is not possible. Very much so we have not been able to reduce the number of thieves and many other criminals to zero; so what, should we legalize the crimes and accept those crimes as normal social behavior?

It is our duty to disapprove it; discourage it; only this approach would help them really. 

I readily agree to his conclusion that we should help them. The difference lies in how.

Mr. Williams, let me ask you one simple thing. Did you ever read Kamasutra or just talking on the basis of Internet articles you see. Do you even know what sculptures on those temples means? Before blaming Indian culture, how much do you know about our great heritage? Let me tell you, Indian culture strictly forbids any physical relation which is not done for the desire of having children. If you have doubts, I would suggest you to first go and read the Puranas. You'll get your answer. The Kamasutra you are talking about consists of 64 positions of intercourse between "Man and Woman" and Shusrut Samhita is a book of Medical sciences. Its the first book on open surgery and its process not "sexual relationships". Kindly get your datas correct before pin pointing someone's traditions.
As far as temple architecture is consider, for your kind information, you will also see architecture of murder, meat eating, intoxication etc on it. All of them were done to repeated reminding common public what are sins and what are not and before entering the temple, just to throw away all these thoughts from their mind and enter with a pure mind. Kind know the history of construction of Hindu temples before blaming them. 
I would also suggest you not to comment on something you don't know about. It may lead to controversy and quarrel...

Ms. Sarika singh  please look up Google for homosexuality in  kamasutra and Sushruta Samhita before claiming that we kick our cultural heritage in favor of   homosexuality is western practice .Please be advised Medieval Hindu temples such as those at Khajuraho depict sexual acts in sculptures on the external walls. The meaning of the erotic images is disputed. Some of these scenes involve same-sex sexuality:

An orgiastic group of three women and one man, on the southern wall of the Kandariya Mahadeva temple in Khajuraho. One of the women is caressing another.
A similar group, also on the southern wall, shows a woman facing the viewer, standing on her head, apparently engaged in intercourse, although her partner is facing away from the viewer and their gender cannot be determined. She is held by two female attendants on either side and reaches out to touch one of them in her pubic area.
Also at Khajuraho, a relief of two women embracing one another.
At the Lakshmana temple in Khajuraho (954 CE), a man receives fellatio from a seated male as part of an orgiastic scene.
At the Shiva temple at Ambernath, constructed in 1060 CE, a badly weathered relief suggests an erotic interest between two women.
At the Rhajarani Temple in Bhuveshvar, Orissa, dating from the 10th or 11th century, a sculpture depicts two women engaged in oral sex.
A 12th century Shiva temple in Bagali, Karnataka depicts a scene of apparent oral sex between two males on a sculpture below the sikhara.
At Padhavli near Gwalior, a ruined temple from the 10th century shows a man within an orgiastic group receiving fellatio from another male.
An 11th century lifesize sandstone sculpture from Orissa, now in the Seattle Art Museum, shows Kama, god of love, shooting an arrow at two women who are embracing one another.Homosexuality is anomaly of the human race no doubt about that  and they are very much here and we cannot do anything about it and that the truth. And i personally believe they are people who need help . 

This shameful act is not at all supported by Indian culture. Sexual relations is not just a matter of enjoyment? Anybody thinking so is mentality is sick. Our culture allows this relation from production of children. Not for time pass like dogs on streets. Since this relation cannot give any fruitful result, so this is not Indian. Also, this was never a part of our society. Just a few decades ago when we tried to become "Westernised", we started kicking our own culture and adopt everything from Westerners. Do you think this is modernisation? not at all. It is complete degradation. At least animals moving on the streets are better than us because they get attracted to opposite sex not same sex. Earlier Eve-Teasing used to happen only with different genders. Now it will start happening with same genders also. Also the AIDS cases will increase. Waw!!! what an "lower than" animalic society we are living in....!!!!